ForgotPassword?
Sign Up
Search this Topic:
Forum Jump
Posts: 10379
Jul 31 11 6:31 PM
Registered Member
If I understand you correctly, then why aren't the New Gods a property of the Kirby estate? They seem pretty clearly a property of DC Comics as DC has published them and used characters from them in a myriad of other projects and properties. As far as I have ever known or read, the Kirby estate is not receiving royalty payments for those characters.
Posts: 1816
Jul 31 11 6:43 PM
Posts: 1238
Jul 31 11 6:56 PM
Jul 31 11 7:02 PM
Posts: 14376
Jul 31 11 7:03 PM
Fin Fang Foom wrote:If I understand you correctly, then why aren't the New Gods a property of the Kirby estate? They seem pretty clearly a property of DC Comics as DC has published them and used characters from them in a myriad of other projects and properties. As far as I have ever known or read, the Kirby estate is not receiving royalty payments for those characters. Geez, I can only wonder what you've been reading -- DC has made it a policy to pay creators (and often credit them) when characters are used in other media. In fact, when Kirby's New Gods characters were used as part of Kenner's "Super Powers" toy, line in the mid-1980s, Kirby received payment for the use of those characters -- probably for the first time in his career.
Posts: 11308
Jul 31 11 8:29 PM
kirbyfanatic wrote:And, to finish my thought, that's why all the Marvel artists should have been compensated for redrawn pages: the Marvel method lent itself to artists not giving Stan what he wanted, because it meant that Stan would often not be specific about what he wanted, so it was on Stan if pages weren't depicting what he needed in the story. Either accept the pages submitted as is, or pay the artists for the redrawn pages. Pretty simple. Or abandon the Marvel Method and spell out at the beginning what is needed, then it's on the artist if pages need to be redrawn because they weren't folloowing the story. Allen Smith
Posts: 851
Jul 31 11 10:14 PM
droid714 wrote: Pure speculation.
Jul 31 11 11:32 PM
alexarkadin wrote:droid714 wrote: Pure speculation.True, and Lee's fans should be thrilled by his deposition, and the judge's use of it in forming her opinion.Lee now says he created the plots and characters by himself and gave them to the artists to illustrate. The judge repeatedly referees to Kirby as producing artwork, never story, or characters, and that follows Lee's sworn testimony. Lee goes far beyond the early formative years in his comments. In one instance he says that he created Galactus alone without ever speaking to Kirby. Lee adds that prior statements he made in interviews and the Origins books which gave greater credit to Kirby as a co-creator were made only because he "wanted to make Jack feel good, like we were doing it together." I've seen some speculation that now that the copyright has been ruled on Marvel should go ahead and credit Kirby properly. Well according to Lee Kirby was nothing more than an illustrator, so Kirby is already properly credited...as an artist. Any suggestion to the contrary would be casting doubt on Lee's credibility. Not true.The only thing the judge decided was that Kirby performed work for hire. She never denied that Kirby was a co-creator, only that the characters he created were at Marvel's request and belong to Marvel.
Posts: 899
Aug 1 11 12:44 AM
Aug 1 11 1:48 AM
I was aware of the Super Powers royalties that Kirby received (evidently for redesigning his characters for Kenner), but does the family get anything when DC publishes stories using the New Gods characters, for example, the mini-series that Jim Starlin did a while back?
I've always presumed that the royalties are a goodwill gesture and don't constitute any legal acknowledgement by DC of ownership on the part of the Kirby's.
Posts: 4762
Aug 1 11 3:24 AM
Bronze Age
alexarkadin wrote: Runguy wrote: I really do not see whether Kirby was exclusive to Marvel or not has any revelance to the case. He wasn't.
Runguy wrote: I really do not see whether Kirby was exclusive to Marvel or not has any revelance to the case.
Aug 1 11 9:00 AM
droid714 wrote: kirbyfanatic wrote: And, to finish my thought, that's why all the Marvel artists should have been compensated for redrawn pages: the Marvel method lent itself to artists not giving Stan what he wanted, because it meant that Stan would often not be specific about what he wanted, so it was on Stan if pages weren't depicting what he needed in the story. Either accept the pages submitted as is, or pay the artists for the redrawn pages. Pretty simple. Or abandon the Marvel Method and spell out at the beginning what is needed, then it's on the artist if pages need to be redrawn because they weren't folloowing the story.Allen SmithPure speculation.
kirbyfanatic wrote: And, to finish my thought, that's why all the Marvel artists should have been compensated for redrawn pages: the Marvel method lent itself to artists not giving Stan what he wanted, because it meant that Stan would often not be specific about what he wanted, so it was on Stan if pages weren't depicting what he needed in the story. Either accept the pages submitted as is, or pay the artists for the redrawn pages. Pretty simple. Or abandon the Marvel Method and spell out at the beginning what is needed, then it's on the artist if pages need to be redrawn because they weren't folloowing the story.Allen Smith
Posts: 1148
Aug 1 11 11:03 AM
Posts: 1754
Aug 1 11 11:21 AM
Aug 1 11 11:36 AM
Aug 1 11 11:46 AM
czeskleba wrote:Alex, I don't know why you are so focused on the character creation issue in this discussion. The judge makes it clear she is not ruling on who created the characters. The rationale she uses for determining the work Kirby did was for hire would apply regardless of whether Kirby created everything himself, Stan created everything himself, or something in between. The judge doesn't even appear to completely accept Lee's version of events. In her description of the creation of the FF, she writes that "Lee and Kirby co-created the Fantastic Four. At their first plotting conference, Lee and Kirby discussed ideas for the first issue. Kirby then produced the pencil drawings for the issue." That certainly doesn't gibe with Lee's version of events... if anything, it sounds more like Evanier's scenario.
Aug 1 11 12:14 PM
kirbyfanatic wrote:droid714 wrote: kirbyfanatic wrote: And, to finish my thought, that's why all the Marvel artists should have been compensated for redrawn pages: the Marvel method lent itself to artists not giving Stan what he wanted, because it meant that Stan would often not be specific about what he wanted, so it was on Stan if pages weren't depicting what he needed in the story. Either accept the pages submitted as is, or pay the artists for the redrawn pages. Pretty simple. Or abandon the Marvel Method and spell out at the beginning what is needed, then it's on the artist if pages need to be redrawn because they weren't folloowing the story.Allen SmithPure speculation.Actually, I prefer the term, "educated guess." But your point is taken. Allen SmithUnless you were in the Marvel Bullpen back in the early 60's or have close, personal relationships with people who were that have given you inside information, then it is pure speculation.I could just as easily make the argument that the Marvel Method was less conducive to pages being redrawn because the rules were so much more lax and the artists had far more creative leeway (pun intended!). I certainly doubt that the Marvel Method would have been the success it was if artists were constantly having their work rejected and having to redo the pages.
Aug 1 11 12:21 PM
alexarkadin wrote: The whole key for the estate was to establish that Kirby had created characters on spec which he brought to Lee. That argument is sunk, because Lee claims to have created all the characters and basic plots before ever talking to Kirby.
Aug 1 11 12:27 PM
alexarkadin wrote: The judge mentions earlier that FF #1 was based on a plot outline created by Stan Lee before ever speaking to Kirby. Her ruling is kind of sloppy and misstates a number of trivial facts, like the comment about Nick Fury. In Lee's depositions for the case he goes through ever major character created during the years in question and says the same thing every time. He created the characters before ever speaking to the artists, and gave the characters and plots to the artists to pencil. This question should be easy to clear up. Stan Lee does interviews very often. All anyone need do is ask him one question:"Mr. Lee can you name one character during the years 1958-1963 which Jack Kirby created alone and brought to you?"
Posts: 2776
Aug 1 11 1:12 PM
Golden Age
Share This