Some questions I've always wondered about:
1. What processes are used (on comics & collected editions) to make sure that images on both sides of a page stay on those sides? In other words, how does
the printer know how much ink to use without bleeding through?
2. Why do comic pages (especially the glossy paper) that are flat when I first open a comic to read end up with little "rolls" and
"crinkles" in them after reading? But then when that same comic is stored, the pages become flat again. What's happening to cause that change?
Or more simply, why does this type of paper bend when in motion (turning pages), and then revert to form at rest?
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Printing & Paper 101 Q's for Gormuu & the Forum
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 Sentry 459 |
Printing & Paper 101 Q's for Gormuu & the Forum |
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Posts: 676 (07/12/09 7:07 PM) |
My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy!
Last Edited By: Sentry 459 07/12/09 7:13 PM.
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srca1941 |
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Posts: 4121 (07/12/09 10:03 PM) |
1) That would be a question to ask a printer, and I'm better versed in pre-press, but there are hundreds of years of experience with this, and now it is
computer controlled. As far as bleeding goes, that has less to do with the printer laying down a certain amount of ink, and more to do with the weight, or
thickness, of the paper. Obviously, the greater the weight, the less bleed. I'm sure that the paper's finish can also play a roll.
2) My guess would be humidity. As a book is opened, it is exposed to the humidity in the air, and the paper will curl. When stored, it is likely in a low humidity environment, and the pages flatten out again, especially if compressed by other books. -Eric
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michkelleher |
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Posts: 44 (07/12/09 10:46 PM) |
1) srca1941 pretty much has it. Many presses are computer controlled now and the machines calculate the amount of ink. Before computers, we just had to make
adjustments by hand. Also, what is usually mistaken as "bleed through" is actually what is called "offset". That is when the ink from the
top off a sheet of paper makes an impression onto the back of the piece of paper that lands on top of it as it comes off the press. This can look like the ink
has bled through the paper when it really hasn't. Printers also use an offset powder that falls between the sheets of paper. This creates a thin layer of
particles that keep the sheets of paper from actually touching ( picture putting a layer of marbles between 2 sheet of plywood ). The powder is usually blown
away during the steps between printing and binding, but its not uncommon to have residue remain on the finished book.
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DanaMania |
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Posts: 2751 (07/12/09 11:07 PM) Golden Age |
Or more simply, why does this type of paper bend when in motion (turning pages), and then revert to form at rest?
I was going to suggest unstable molecules. 
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Urban |
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Posts: 1938 (07/13/09 4:55 AM) Golden Age |
michkelleher wrote: I hate offset powder.... The one I used to use made everything taste like icing sugar 
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Fin Fang Foom |
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Posts: 3103 (07/13/09 9:44 AM) Registered Member |
It's not much of an issue, really, because it isn't as though there's all that much ink applied to paper in the printing process. Even with an uncoated paper stock like newsprint, which is somewhat more absorbent, most of the ink still sits on the surface of the paper. And the consistency of the ink is thick -- more gel than liquid.
In The Back Of Beyond -- The World Seen Through The Camera Of My iPhone.
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Sentry 459 |
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Posts: 677 (07/13/09 10:26 AM) |
I knew that the ink (amount/layer) was set by computers. But it's also true that the computers are set by humans. Which makes me wonder again how this
process is determined. Just how much ink must be transferred to a page in a comic book or Masterwork? And does the number for ink depth change depending upon
the thickness of the paper? Does thicker or thinner paper allow for more or less ink and richer or lighter shades of colors? Or can one have rich colors
regardless of the thickness of the paper?
I suppose questions like these are taken for granted by a lot of comic book and magazine readers. But if one stops and thinks about it, paper (and printing) is really quite an amazing process! That a very thin sheet of paper can have clear, colorful, vibrant images on both sides (without interfering with each other) is really something! From time to time, I try to see things through the lense of child-like curiosity, asking, "Why this or that?". Thanks for all the good answers everyone! Re: about page curl, I wonder if it has something to do with paper being a product of plants/trees that at one time were living and had cells. I know that lumber can warp and bend with temperature change. Paper being a wood product does the same thing, but on a much smaller scale. I think it's not just the humidity, but the interaction of air temperature/moisture level with the dynamic fibers of the paper products themselves. The paper may not be growing anymore, but it "seems alive" in the sense that it still responds to outside influences in the environment. My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy!
Last Edited By: Sentry 459
07/13/09 10:39 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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Sentry 459 |
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Posts: 678 (07/13/09 10:30 AM) |
DanaMania wrote:LOL! 
My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy! |
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Sentry 459 |
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Posts: 679 (07/13/09 10:33 AM) |
Fin Fang Foom wrote:That is one of the things that I find amazing! The laws of physics for both ink and paper and how they interact. That ink would sit nicely one side and on the other side with the result being two clear, colorful, vibrant images! Pretty cool!
My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy! |
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Sentry 459 |
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Posts: 680 (07/13/09 10:36 AM) |
Fin Fang Foom wrote: So perhaps at the microscopic level, the thick ink is quickly being brushed against the upper surface of a piece of paper? I can visualize layers (depth) in plywood, but it's a little harder to visualize depth in a piece of paper! 
My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy!
Last Edited By: Sentry 459
07/13/09 10:41 AM.
Edited 1 times.
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Alan Barger |
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Posts: 385 (07/13/09 10:45 AM) |
Sentry 459 wrote: That IS humidity........................ Alan The Insane!!!
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Sentry 459 |
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Posts: 682 (07/13/09 11:40 AM) |
Alan Barger wrote: I hear what you are saying. I'm just trying to break things down into their smallest components, both humidity and the structrue of paper. 
I think it's not just the humidity, but the interaction of air temperature/moisture level with the dynamic fibers of the paper products themselves. My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy!
Last Edited By: Sentry 459
07/13/09 11:45 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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Fin Fang Foom |
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Posts: 3104 (07/13/09 5:38 PM) Registered Member |
It might help if I describe the process, in a simplified sort of way: the ink coats a rubber cylinder, and that rolls in contact with a metal (or sometimes plastic) plate (which has the image that's being reproduced, in relief) that's wrapped around another cylinder. The ink comes into contact with the raised areas (that's the image you'll see on the page), and then that cylinder is rolled in contact against another rubber cylinder, transferring the ink from the plate to its' surface. Finally, that cylinder rolls in contact with a roll of paper. Multiply that by four passes for four-color printing. All of this happens continuously, at about a zillion miles an hour. (There's a more detailed, and probably much more accurate explanation here.) As others have said, the process of ink distribution is now completely automated (though it can be adjusted by human control, of course). I've no idea how it was originally determined what would work best -- probably trial and error, I suppose, though it wouldn't take much to figure out that you'd want to use a small amount of ink and have an even coating. (I can remember working with hand-operated presses that follow the same principle, and there really wasn't too leeway to setting correct ink coverage.
In The Back Of Beyond -- The World Seen Through The Camera Of My iPhone.
Last Edited By: Fin Fang Foom
07/13/09 5:49 PM.
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Sentry 459 |
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Posts: 700 (07/13/09 6:11 PM) |
Fin Fang Foom,
Thanks for the extended reply (in layman's terms)! My name is Oedi and I soar amidst the stars far from the planet of my birth. I guess this starship is the closest thing I've got to a home now, for I am a refugee and an outlaw. Vanth Dreadstar, Syzygy Darklock, Willow 327, Rainbow and Skeevo are my family. We are revolutionaries. Our goal? To bring an end to the 200 year old war between the Instrumentality and the Monarchy! |
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- Masterworks Message Board
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- Uncollected Editions: The Homegrown Hardcovers Binding Forum
- Polling Central
- CE Watchdog: All-Purpose Collected Editions Complaint Forum
- Collected Editions Discussion and Review Board
- The Vault
- Binding Vault
