American Flagg! in Crisis On Infinite Comics! Forum

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American Flagg!

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Fin Fang Foom

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Posts: 9485

Aug 2 08 2:46 PM

Registered Member

The duotone is one thing and I was prepared for some dropout there but the thing that bugs me about that scan is the loss of linework in the hair.

I'm surprised at that, as well, because that combination of magenta and yellow shouldn't be all that difficult to remove with a digital process -- doing so shouldn't have caused so much loss of the linework. I'm not ready to assume that the entire book is as poor as this example, but it certainly is disappointing.

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Chrome Aardvark

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Posts: 1043

Aug 2 08 6:14 PM

Is that a typical example Stu? The duotone is one thing and I was prepared for some dropout there but the thing that bugs me about that scan is the loss of linework in the hair. The rest of the linework seems good enugh but it's like they forgot to pay attention to the hair. Am I going to see a lot of that when I buy this book?

Stu has posted what would possibly be the worst offender in book with regards to linework. Overall the linework is solid. The zipatone varies wildly from page-to-page from patchy to slightly faded to damn-near spot on. I'd agree that this is a few steps down from the "definitive edition" that was promised. It is however, still a good representation of the material and, despite its faults, still worth picking up.

AussieStu

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Posts: 11867

Aug 2 08 7:19 PM

Golden Age

.... I will go along with what Chrome has said, it might be the worst example but I haven't compared all the issues. This was from the first issue.
I am aware of other examples which just make the book a disappointment for me.

The Negative Zone

Stan Lee, 1968:
" ... And we talk it out. Lately, I've had Roy Thomas come in, and he sits and makes notes while we discuss it. Then he types them up which gives us a written synopsis. Originally-I have a little tape recorder-I had tried taping it, but then I found no one on staff has time to listen to the tape again later. But this way he makes notes, types it quickly, I get a carbon, the artist gets a carbon...so we don't have to worry that we'll forget what we've said. Then the artist goes home...or wherever he goes...and he draws the thing out, brings it back, and I put the copy in after he's drawn the story based on the plot I've given him. Now this varies with the different artists. Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others. Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I'll just say to Jack, 'Let's make the next villain be Dr. Doom'... or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He's good at plots. I'm sure he's a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing... I may tell him he's gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I'll give him a plot, but we're practically both the writers on the things. "

deejayway

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Posts: 2891

Aug 3 08 6:33 AM

I second what Stu said. I'm so disappointed with the dubious quality of this book that I intend to sell it. It's been a looong time since I was so p*ssed of about the production values of a reprint volume that it wound up in my "for sale" pile. Off hand, I can't think of the last offender.
It took Image years to produce this cr*p!?!
To quote the immortal Clay Davis: "Sheeeeee*********t!"
Comparing this to your average Gemstone EC Archives, is like comparing a dog t*rd to a diamond.
Erik Larsen doesn't have egg on his face, he's got a whole poultry farm.
"Sheeeee*****t!" I says again.

Chrome Aardvark

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Posts: 1043

Aug 3 08 7:09 AM

The art seems bland and listless, especially if you compare it to the great job First did on large-formal graphic novel reprints they produced back in the day. This just does not compare.

They are supposed to be representations of the original comic series, not the graphic novel reprints. I've sat down and done a side-by-side comparison of the original comics and they compare favourably to them.

There are a number of alterations in the colouring for the first two issues, not sure why, but after this it is pretty much spot on apart from the odd colour correction. The art is a lot "crisper" than the original newsprint pages, where some of the art and colour inks became quite muddy. In that way it looks cleaner and sharper in comparison, and the matte pages serve the art well.

I can understand people complaining about the binding and dustjacket, but the art and colouring are of a pretty decent standard, apart from the glitches Stu pointed out and the variations in the zip and colour.

I'm so disappointed with the dubious quality of this book that I intend to sell it. It's been a looong time since I was so p*ssed of about the production values of a reprint volume that it wound up in my "for sale" pile. Off hand, I can't think of the last offender.

Deej, apart from what I've sighted what's causing you to have such an extreme reaction towards this book?

It took Image years to produce this cr*p!?!

It has its faults, but it is hardly cr*p.

Last Edited By: Chrome Aardvark Aug 3 08 7:17 AM. Edited 3 times.

AussieStu

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Posts: 11867

Aug 3 08 7:32 AM

Golden Age

... Chrome, the art is bland and listless compared to the original comics and the First graphic novels ... I am surprised you are happy with a "favourable" job ... I can see people being happy with this book if they have never seen this work before but the truth is that it is lackluster

... it is "crap" when you think of the time that has been spent on this work

The Negative Zone

Stan Lee, 1968:
" ... And we talk it out. Lately, I've had Roy Thomas come in, and he sits and makes notes while we discuss it. Then he types them up which gives us a written synopsis. Originally-I have a little tape recorder-I had tried taping it, but then I found no one on staff has time to listen to the tape again later. But this way he makes notes, types it quickly, I get a carbon, the artist gets a carbon...so we don't have to worry that we'll forget what we've said. Then the artist goes home...or wherever he goes...and he draws the thing out, brings it back, and I put the copy in after he's drawn the story based on the plot I've given him. Now this varies with the different artists. Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others. Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I'll just say to Jack, 'Let's make the next villain be Dr. Doom'... or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He's good at plots. I'm sure he's a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing... I may tell him he's gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I'll give him a plot, but we're practically both the writers on the things. "

Chrome Aardvark

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Posts: 1043

Aug 4 08 6:16 AM

Stu,

I wouldn't exactly say happy. In a lot of ways, that I've pointed out already, it's dissapointing. It could of been much better handled, but I'm still happy that it's on my shelf.

I think - with the amount of time that people have spent waiting for this one to arrive and the expectation invested therein - it was always going to be met with a degree of disappointment even if it was near-perfect, which this is definitely not.

So yeah, I'll agree that the overall product is less than desirable when you think of the time that has been spent on this work.

AussieStu

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Posts: 11867

Aug 4 08 6:25 AM

Golden Age

... thanks for your reply

The Negative Zone

Stan Lee, 1968:
" ... And we talk it out. Lately, I've had Roy Thomas come in, and he sits and makes notes while we discuss it. Then he types them up which gives us a written synopsis. Originally-I have a little tape recorder-I had tried taping it, but then I found no one on staff has time to listen to the tape again later. But this way he makes notes, types it quickly, I get a carbon, the artist gets a carbon...so we don't have to worry that we'll forget what we've said. Then the artist goes home...or wherever he goes...and he draws the thing out, brings it back, and I put the copy in after he's drawn the story based on the plot I've given him. Now this varies with the different artists. Some artists, of course, need a more detailed plot than others. Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot at all. I mean I'll just say to Jack, 'Let's make the next villain be Dr. Doom'... or I may not even say that. He may tell me. And then he goes home and does it. He's good at plots. I'm sure he's a thousand times better than I. He just about makes up the plots for these stories. All I do is a little editing... I may tell him he's gone too far in one direction or another. Of course, occasionally I'll give him a plot, but we're practically both the writers on the things. "

Monsty

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Posts: 1428

Aug 4 08 8:43 PM

Registered Member

When I first reviewed this, I didn't have time to compare it to my originals. It looked good, based on my memory of Chaykin's work. However, I was shocked when I compared it to the original issues. This production is really lame.

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DarthAstuart

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Posts: 527

Aug 5 08 2:47 PM

Wow, I have this coming to me in the mail, and while I'm not familiar with the original issues, I'm wondering if I shouldn't at least get this first round of books in the First trade paperback format, although I think that leaves a few issues off the end...hopefully it won't be too distracting to me, as I'd prefer to own this in a nice sturdy hardcover.

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deejayway

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Posts: 2891

Aug 6 08 4:46 AM

Darth, let me reassure you, if you're not familiar with this work, then this volume is a great introduction.
The problem is that for old fans like Stu and myself, we were expecting/hoping for a "definitive" edition and "definitive" this definitively ain't.
The stories are still great and the reproduction is adequate enough to appreciate the artwork but it could've and should've been so much better. particularly after such a long wait.
I don't know whether or not it was Image's intention to reproduce the art as it was originally presented, warts and all.
I also don't care. I just know that the reproduction in the 3 graphic novel-sized reprints First produced in the 80s was infinitesimally better than this hardcover.
I strongly suggest you track down the First reprints too if you can get them for a nice price. I think Graphitti also produced them as hardcovers but I think they are pretty expensive.
Anyway, don't be too discouraged. Whatever the shortcomings of the reproduction, you're still in for a huge treat.

goldbeetle

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Posts: 179

Aug 6 08 7:39 AM

Bah! I've just bought the complete collection of the original comic books!
So much for the Image HCs...

moosechoke

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Posts: 39

Aug 6 08 8:28 AM

DarthAstuart wrote:
Wow, I have this coming to me in the mail, and while I'm not familiar with the original issues, I'm wondering if I shouldn't at least get this first round of books in the First trade paperback format, although I think that leaves a few issues off the end...hopefully it won't be too distracting to me, as I'd prefer to own this in a nice sturdy hardcover.

Of the three volumes First did, Hard Times is great. The coloring was re-done in watercolor, and the production values are pretty high. The flesh tones are yellow and de-saturated, but overall I like it. The following two volumes (Southern Comfort and State of the Union) are horrible. The artwork isn't scaled up to the larger size of these editions, and the art swims on the page (perhaps they used the exact same printing plates as they used for the floppies for these 2 volumes). The screening technique they used is the one where they use line patterns rather than dots. It looks fine on newsprint, but really is fatiguing to the eye on the white glossy stock First used.

The First books reprint issues 1-9, 3 issues per volume with a prelude to Hard Times not contained in the floppies. The prelude's in the Image book.

As I mentioned earlier, I have the floppies, the Graphitti/First collected editions, and the new Image book. I'm going with having my floppies bound, and I'll probably keep the Image book lying around for the material not in the floppies.

deejayway

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Posts: 2891

Aug 6 08 8:39 AM

moosechoke wrote:

Of the three volumes First did, Hard Times is great. The following two volumes (Southern Comfort and State of the Union) are horrible. The artwork isn't scaled up to the larger size of these editions, and the art swims on the page (perhaps they used the exact same printing plates as they used for the floppies for these 2 volumes).

That's not my recollection but I have to admit I haven't looked at them in literally years.

JB Clarenson

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Posts: 819

Aug 12 08 8:29 AM

it's...granuleux....strange since the non-chaykin are perfect...hope they'll continue the reprints though

DarthAstuart

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Posts: 527

Aug 13 08 2:52 PM

Well, the volume is sitting in my "to-read" pile right now, and on a flip-thru, based on reading the First edition of Hard Times, the worst I can say about the art is that the colors look pretty garish in spots--to my recollection, the First edition had a rich palette but it wasn't quite as "bright" as the Image hardcover seems to be.

Anyway, from a pure reading perspective, I'm still really looking forward to this.

******************
Visit Alert Nerd
A Blog For Geeks, By Geeks

Tchotchke

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Posts: 176

Aug 21 08 4:28 PM

AussieStu wrote:

Quicksilver wrote:
Does not feel like a shoddy production to me but I know some of you guys are super-fusspots.

... SUPER-FUSSPOTS UNITE ... make sure you bring your capes ... for the regular pots, can you spot the difference? ( I will give you a hint, there are over a million of them)

HOLEY MOLEY! I was getting interested in this book, but shots like the above kill all interest. Not only are the dots gone, but so is linework, and the colors in her hair are all wrong. Dire!

Last Edited By: Tchotchke Aug 21 08 5:13 PM. Edited 1 times.

blueharvest9

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Posts: 7

Sep 1 08 12:08 PM

I've been reading the Image edition and I'd have to agree with the complaints to a certain extent. Yes, there is a loss of duotone detail, but unless you're doing A-B comparisons you probably will never miss it. The best thing about this edition is the overall improvement in printing, specifically the black areas, which are now solid and consistent and not at the mercy of the poor paper or printing of the mid-80's. However, if you compare First's titles from that time next to Marvel or DC's printing, First's looks better.

The main question I have about the new edition is with the coloring. Lynn Varley and Leslie Zahler's original work has been "restored" by Avalon Studio's, Erik Larsen and Eric Stephenson, yet there are enough differences between the new edition and the floppies that I think the term "restored" is a poor choice. The new edition makes some very obvious changes (again, in A-B comparisons), but then other not so obvious ones: in the floppies, boots are brown, in this edition they're red or blue. Coming from a film world, the term "restoration" implies those doing the restoring are trying to convey or match what was originally shot only with improvements in modern technology. I wonder if Varley and Zahler, and as importantly, Chaykin, were consulted or involved in the process. I can only imagine Chaykin was and I would think he'd have to give his blessing as it's his book.

Is it the "definitive" American Flagg? It's as close as we're ever going to get, I guess. I hope Larsen and Image will take our critiques of this first volume into account as they work on the rest.

Contact: maxthesilent9@yahoo.com

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